Friday, November 11, 2005

Us vs. Them in Education

I taught sixth grade for two years in the Teach for America program in a military town in the South. My situation was a little unusual. My class was about 2/3 military brats, and while a good chunk of the remaining third were desperately poor--I made a few home visits to dilapidated trailers because the family didn't have a phone--on the whole, there was quite an economic mix. There were sizable percentages on free lunch, sizable on reduced, and sizable without. So the reason the school needed TFA teachers wasn't because it was struggling with economic or even educational issues, but because most of their teachers were military spouses who might have to pack up and leave on a moment's notice. They were, quite simply, thrilled that anybody was planning to stick around for two years.

Out of the five sixth grade teachers in my school, exactly one was certified in the state--Kathy, a 14-year veteran teacher, well-respected in the community. A second was not yet certified in the state, but was certified out of state. The remaining three were emergency certified (two of us through TFA, the third not). All were teaching for the first time in our lives. The TFA teachers had a couple of weeks of classroom experience from our summer institute. The non-TFA, to my knowledge, had nothing.

The school had a policy where parents could choose which teachers their kids had--but it did not publicize the policy. It's pretty easy to see why. Not every student would get what they wanted. What parent in their right mind wouldn't pick Kathy? She's the known quantity, she's good, and the rest of us are unknown quantities and, for the most part, neophytes. When only those parents who are (a) super-duper in the know and (b) care enough to make a few phone calls get to pick their children's teachers, their kids (who, due to the positive aspects of this kind of parenting, are almost invariably very strong students) are going to wind up in Kathy's class. Kathy's class won the math facts award nearly every year. Some of that was her skills as a teacher, yes...but some of it was that she always got the kids whose parents valued education. Kathy's kids got a doubly-good education (a better teacher and sharper classmates). And, since those kids' parents got to choose every year, that impact was exponentially compounded over time.

Now, let's take a look at the impact of this policy on the rest of the sixth-grade classrooms...in other words, the doubly-bad education that was an inevitable side-effect of the doubly-good education happening next door. These kids were already at some disadvantage for having untrained teachers. On top of that, the tip-top students were already scooped out of their classrooms--so we were left with a combination of (1) the kids whose parents didn't know or care enough to make a choice, and (2) military kids, new in town, whose parents no doubt wanted their students to have as good an education as possible, but who would instead get an untrained teacher and no contact with many of the other really sharp kids. We did our best--we even did some very good work--but still, it seems obvious to me that these children were the victims of an injustice. Yes, all teachers should be quality, trained teachers. But if they aren't, it's not fair to reward a kid because her parents care--because that means penalizing a kid whose parents don't. And we can't penalize any children for things they have no control over.

I'll never forget a conversation I had with a parent who was also a fellow teacher at the school. She got very angry--I could practically see smoke coming out of her ears--because I told her I was against the policy of parent choice. She said "But I have the right to choose what's best for my child!" My response: I respected her choice to do that as a parent, but as teachers, we have the responsibility to look out for what's best for all children. I could have put it another way: we can't be valuing "us" (parents who care, or non-military local kids) over "them" (everyone else).

Another example: A friend of a friend is really angry because of a situation involving her high-school aged daughter. The daughter is taking a high-level math course. There was one especially strong teacher at the school who the high-level math students' parents wanted to teach their students. The principal decided the school and its students were better served by this teacher's teaching low level math. The parents were livid. Their response was along the lines of "Why should this teacher's efforts be wasted on a bunch of kids who aren't ever going to amount to anything?" This statement is based on the assumption that "us" (high-achieving students) are more important than "them" (low-achieving students). That's utter bullshit. It comes very close to dehumanizing the lower-achievers...it justifies giving "them" less of an education than "us," as though 16-year-olds have done anything to deserve that. How many of us, our friends, and our children struggle in math? Are they less worthy of the best teacher than the superstars are? I can tell you that it is far more difficult to teach lower-achievers than higher-achievers--so in that sense, the principal's decision to put her better teacher with the tougher class was absolutely logical. But these parents refuse to value the education of all kids--just "ours."

So let's expand the pool back to national issues. Similar to the above two situations, we have differences in quality of education--some of them dramatic. Given that there is some "choice" for the advantaged, it's easy for those of us with racial and/or socioeconomic advantages to ignore the problem by just making sure our kids get the best. (Keep in mind that I put myself in that group--when my wife and I move, I'll be looking for the best possible school we can afford.) We may feel guilty about it, but for the most part we'll have to shrug it off and say: "I'm just looking out for my kid. Anyone else can do the same." Well, first of all, not everyone else can do the same. If everyone could, it (1) wouldn't be an advantage and (2) the system wouldn't work. (Given a chance, all parents would demand Kathy or demand the talented math teacher.) But as it is, parents with the means, the energy, and the desire can find their way through the system.

The problem here is that, unfortunately, this is at other kids' expense. Saying "I demand my kid have the best education available" is inextricably interwoven with saying "I demand that my neighbors have educations not as good as my kid." It is impossible to say the first statement without simultaneously saying the second. And I don't want to live with a system that forces me to either say "to hell with my fellow citizens' kids" or to throw my kid into substandard schools.

One way to "solve" this is to emphasize the "us" vs. "them" divisions in our society. "Well, those kids aren't good at math, they don't deserve the good teachers." "Well, rich kids are ultimately going to lead this country anyway--therefore, they're the msot important, and deserve the best education." "What about parenting? Obviously, their parenting skills are for crap--our kids is succeeding because of our superior love and support of our children." That's the route we're taking now, and although it's good for the children of the advantaged (like me), it's not worthy of what we as a nation are supposed to stand for.

The alternative is to demand the best possible education for all children. And, as I see it, the only way to do that is to throw us all into the same educational pot. At that moment, we'll be required to actually care about all of our children. With the system set up as it is, it acually helps the advantaged not to care...you can't have an advantaged education without a disadvantaged education. But when all of our kids and all of our money are together, suddenly the advantaged and disadvantaged will have to work together for the common good of their children.

Then, maybe we can get something done for all kids.

32 comments:

Alison said...

OK, then - going back to your TFA experience: how would you have divided the kids up, and in what way would that have provided a better education for all of them? In the situation you described, some kids were going to get a superior education, and some were going to get an inferior one. How is it an improvement for you (or the principal or the school board) to decide who are the haves and who are the have-nots? Same inequally-sized slices of cake, just different recipients.

TeacherRefPoet said...

If the students are divided randomly, the mover-and-shaker parents will be forced to fight for the education of all students rather than using their mover-and-shaker talents to give their own students better educations at the expense of their neighbors. In the long run, that will force the cake to be resliced--for starters, it might call attention to the fact that rural and urban schools have less-qualified staffs. It would give everyone a stake to fight for everyone else.

Why does a six-year-old with an involved parent deserve a better teacher than a six-year-old with a less-involved parent? He/she doesn't. That's why randomness is the only fair way to distribute in this situation.

Joe said...

I'm really having trouble with this, TRP, and I'm working hard to write responses which communicate my respect for your beliefs.

But it does seem to me that one of the outcomes of your argument is that some children deserve less than their parents could optimally provide for them. And I can't live with that either.

This doesn't mean that any parent deserves to do anything they can for their kid. John Gotti can't have the school bully whacked just so his kid feels better about himself. The system has to decide what is and is not reasonable, and I think you've made a good argument that teacher choice is not reasonable.

But I think private schooling (and even school choice) may be reasonable, or more to the point, that prohibiting them is not. I am less afraid of 50 states and thousands of school boards feeling out their own solutions than I am of the federal government trying to devise a one-size-fits-all solution.

So let me ask this: what concrete things do you think a private, national organization of concerned people might do to move us toward an equal educational system for all?

TeacherRefPoet said...

Joe,

First, I'm sort of leaving private schooling out of this. If all public schools were of high quality, and people wanted to opt out for religious or any other reasons, it's not reasonable to say no to that.

Second, my point is that everybody deserves the best. Remember--it's the KIDS that are doing the "deserving" here, not the parents. And no kid deserves more than any other kid.

All kids deserve the tip-top. Not just those whose parents have the means or even merely the interest. All kids.

Joe, I don't see a solution when the movers and shakers can take advantage of inequities...which is why I'm advocating socialism here, which is a bit unusual for me. We divide it all up equally--kids, resoures, etc.--and then watch while people demand more. Even that might not work...people think their kids are more deserving than other kids, and I think a lot of the parents who currently send their kids to the best suburban public schools would start a mass exodus to private schools. Their public school is only valuable insofar as it is better than other schools.

I'm remembering a line from a West Wing a few years back. It seems to me that education should be like defense in this country--free to everybody, of the highest quality for everybody, and damn the cost. Why isn't this true? Why do we tolerate the inequalities and write it off to some 5-year-olds deserve wonderful schools by virtue of their social class and active parenting, but kids with incarcerated, addicted, or simply poor parents deserve shit?

I think it's going to take a revolution to change this. Teachers marching in the streets. Parents of the disenfranchised shouting "enough." The media reporting on hellish conditions in substandard schools rather than constant "From The Ghetto, A Victory And Hope" to focus on the lucky and resourceful exceptions who make it out.

Private National Organization of Concerned People will need shoe leather, a bullhorn, and the media's ear. It'll be harder than getting to Brown vs. Board of Ed. But it's just as morally necessary. Possibly more so.

By the way, do you have the Kozol book yet?

lemming said...

All right then - we've divided the eighty kids up evenly bewteen the four teachers (hey, I'm an optimist.) 20 have Kathy, 40 have you and another TFA (inexperienced but motivated) and 20 have someone who is simply not suited to being a teacher, should not be in a classroom, someone who despite their best efforts is lousy.

Q #1: Doesn't this shortchange 20 kids?

Q #2: What are the motivated revolutionaries supposed to do about the situation?

I've seen this happen with TA led discussion sections for large lecture classes at my university. Parents and students complain and there are no easy solutions. Some of the 20 "at risk" can be farmed out to the other TAs, in hopes that a smaller class size will help the lousy one (after all, any idiot can teach, right?) The Professor can try to work with the TA to improve their teaching skills, but not everyone is willing to accept such criticism, let alone use it...

MCMC said...

Well, I'm leaping in on TRP's side here.

So you take the 80 kids in the TFA school, and you apportion them about equally.

First, nothing convinces me that the smartest kids will be shortchanged. If that's true, the solution is to fire bad teachers and hire excellent ones, ones that can teach across differences in race, class and ability. Those folks are out there (TRP, I suspect you're one of them!) We simply lack various kinds of will (political, financial, etc.) to do what it takes to get them into classrooms.

Second, it seems to me that having at least some high=achieving students in every classroom raises the bar for other students. How do we motivate kids? By putting at least some kids in their classrooms who succeed and who get recognized for their success. Also, why not enlist some of the more talented students in the work of teaching kids who need more help. We learn by teaching, and we learn lots more than the subject matter (every teacher in this conversation knows that's true!)

We also need to look past the frame that says that school is only about academic achievement. It's about that, for sure, but it's also about the raising of a citizenry. I don't want my child in anything other than an integrated classroom (and I mean integrated by race, class, and academic ability...) because she'll have to deal with a world that's integrated anyway. She might as well start in preschool and learn as she grows.

Finally, I do believe the research I've read about that suggests that parents often play a larger role than schools in ensuring academic success. If that research is true, good conscientious parents shouldn't have to worry that their kids might have some peers in a class who aren't their academic equal. They should rest secure in the knowledge that their sons and daughters will have some peers, and that they'll come home to an environment where they'll continue to learn and grow and thrive.

pax
MCMC

Alison said...

So would this shifting of people be an option for parents, or would it be mandatory, and determined by the school system?

lemming said...

First, nothing convinces me that the smartest kids will be shortchanged. If that's true, the solution is to fire bad teachers and hire excellent ones, ones that can teach across differences in race, class and ability.

Two problems there, MCMC.

#1 - the smart kids get short-changed. Why? Because the teacher has no reason to devote extra time to encouraging them. All of the extra time and energy goes to the lower 50%, who have to pass in order to meet NCLB standards. If teh smart kids are lucky, they get a few extra books. They also get odd looks and questions from their peers, and more than a few beatings.

#2 - Get rid of bad teachers - and how do we go about that, pray tell? I will fight for our collective right (and need) for tenure with my last breath, but we all know that there are plenty of teachers, from kindergarten to Harvard, who really should be in another line of work, yet cannot be eliminated. Short of waiting for them to commit a felony, how do you get rid of a teacher?

My sixth grade math teacher was wretched. Everyone knew that he couldn't teach. Everyone - parents, students, administrators, school board - knew that the man was in the wrong field and his emotional blackmail was a lethal teaching technique. Yet there in the classroom he stayed.

TeacherRefPoet said...

I appreciate all the comments--but we're missing the point, which is that everyone deserves the best education. Equally good education for their needs. The idea that some kids get Ferraris and some flip-flops simply has to go. But those with Ferarris just aren't willing to give it up.

Lemming's first question: "Doesn't this shortchange 20 kids?" Damn right it does. My question: which 20 kids deserve to be advantaged? Which deserve to be shortchanged? None. I don't give a crap about economics, ability, parental involvement, preparation for school...No child deserves a better school than any other. All deserve fantastic schools.

My point is that we won't get fantastic schools as long as the movers and shakers in the world can play their cards to get better educations at the expense of the poor. If we continue to shortchange the have-nots, nothing happens. If we start randomly shortchanging, watch while this problem suddenly becomes serious and people start complaining.

Lemming #2--What are we to do? Well, I think tripling teacher salaries is a good place to start, but that ain't gonna happen. I think funding schools through property taxes is simply dreadful--it explains the inequalities. The only way I see to solve this is integration, for the reason I see above. I'm open to smart people advocating change, but the problem is too big for small solutions. Maybe all I can hope for is that we start with Raleigh-style integration with kindergartners and grandfather out the previous injustices.

Alison--Gotta be mandatory. If it's not mandatory, we get the status quo, and the status quo is grossly immoral. Keep in mind the mandatory shifting is designed to spark the revolution to equal and excellent education for everybody...because rather than "their" problem, it's "our" problem now.

MCMC--I agree that there needs to be a mix of abilities in most classrooms, with some exceptions (it's not really possible in secondary math, for instance). I'm a little uneasy saying "why not just have them teach." Teaching is a wonderful way to learn...which is why a good teacher has all of their kids, from lowest to highest abilities, do it. Being a TA isn't as useful as being a student.

Lemming #3--#1 is an unfair criticism. Good teachers do not ignore the smart to get to the bottom (although I'm willing to admit that standardized testing and NCLB have shifted the focus down to them a bit). You're focused on the toughest challenge to any teacher...challenging all students at all levels. That's our job, and you're claiming it's impossible. It's difficult, but not impossible. I don't just take my sharpest kids and "throw them a few books." I either focus on the kinds of questions that everybody can work on at their own level or giving optional "degree of difficulty" assignment options to the sharpest kids out there. Some of my chemistry and physics colleagues teach "conceptual chemistry/physics" concurrently with regular chemistry or physics, thus giving kids who struggle with math the scientific thinking without sacrificing the rigor for the sharper kids. It can be done. If I read your comment correctly, it seems beyond even trying.

#2 is on the nose. It's hard to get rid of bad teachers, especially in needy schools.

If only teachers made enough that movers and shakers (especially in math and science majors) would be eager to make it a career and be able to raise a family in some comfort in the city.

If only all schools were equally good to teachers would want to teach in any school just as much...

How do we get there? Make it everyone's problem, not just "theirs."

Alison said...

"Alison--Gotta be mandatory. If it's not mandatory, we get the status quo, and the status quo is grossly immoral."

And yet that bussing would be done based on race, right? A certain number of black kids would be bussed out of predominantly black neighborhoods and into white neighborhoods, and white kids would be sent the other direction, in the name of achieving a certain ratio of races in each school. (For the moment I am ignoring all the other races out there.) Am I understanding this correctly?

TeacherRefPoet said...

Kozol calls for race, and I answered an earlier question of yours by saying I could handle keeping schools' racial balances within a county.

The more I think about Raleigh's answer (economically integrated schools), the more I like it, however.

I don't care how the kids get mixed. Busing doesn't bother me to increase achievement, which Raleigh shows would happen. But it might take more than that. Integrating a truly horrible school district won't help unless we integrate between districts.

Alison said...

Racially-based bussing is wrong. Period. That would be a violation of Brown, however well-intentioned.

TeacherRefPoet said...

Alison, we're segregated. We're not enforcing Brown. What's your alternative?

I don't follow the logic. How is busing a violation of Brown if it integrates schools?

Alison said...

Because to do so is to tell a kid "you must go to school A as opposed to school B because of your race." Brown made that illegal.

lemming said...

I'm with Alison. Plus, as we've seen, busing doesn't work.

Even if you do bus, then what happens to the rural areas? How far would the kids of Knox county have to travel by bus? Would you send them to Columbus every day?

TeacherRefPoet said...

Alison--

That's not what Brown is about. I've just reread the decision--it's about segregation, period, not about forced busing. Besides, there would be a lottery to determine who would be bused--at least after there are volunteers. It's not race determining who goes where--it's luck of the draw.

Our country is living with apartheid, Alison. Go to Columbus, Cleveland, Denver, New Orleans, Seattle, or any city of significant size anywhere in the US. Go to three suburban schools and look at the faces. Go to three city schools and look at the faces. Tell me we're enforcing Brown. If enforcing Brown is important, we need to do something about it. If educating all kids is important, we need to do something about it.

Why is it wrong to have a randomly-selected rich kid get an inferior education but okay for the kid who lives there to have one?

What's your plan to integrate our schools?

Lemming--

I'm okay with integration by county. Knox County kids will likely stay put.

Your "busing doesn't work" comment will need some backing. Kozol and Raleigh have convinced me otherwise. Kozol gives numbers from Milwaukee, which has inter-district transferring from city to suburbs. Inner-city kids graduating from the suburban schools graduate at a 95% rate, rather than 60% in the city. 90% of those who graduate go on to some form of secondary education, as opposed to 47% in the city. This doesn't even take into account the important social impacts.

Meanwhile, in Raleigh, 91 percent of kids in their economically-integrated-by-busing schools now score at grade level in grades 3 through 8. This is up from 79 percent ten years ago. The white kids are performing at the same high levels...black and Hispanic kids have nearly doubled their achievements. This shows that busing works...indeed, it shows that it is in the very process of working.

Yes, some suburban white kids might have to attend substandard schools.

But I'll repeat my earlier question. Answer me this:

Why is it a tragedy when a suburban white kid has to attend a substandard city school, but acceptable when an inner-city kid does?

To change this, we have to hit powerful people at home.

Confidential to Lemming--I'm not an expert in primary education, but I believe that a good teacher can give sharp kids challenges without sacrificing the needier kids. As a sixth grader, I met a sharp second-grader in the library every day where we looked up information on the states. I also was zipped to a third-grade class for math. It's a tough challenge--the toughest challenge in education, and not one that college teachers face in the same way that elementary and HS teachers do. But it's doable if there's a will.

TeacherRefPoet said...

Note--I was zipped to a third-grade class for math when I was in second grade...not when I was in sixth grade!

Alison said...

You were asking about the "busing doesn't work" comment - this is a quote from the Cleveland Board of Ed on the subject.

http://www.issues-views.com/index.php/sect/1003/article/1046

TeacherRefPoet said...

Thanks for the link, Alison--

1. What happens to student achievement when schools integrate? She mentions a lot of arguments about convenience and who gets to make decisions, but none about student achievement. She says "educating children should be the only goal." Raleigh shows, to me anyway, that integration increases achievement. The quote is from an angry woman, but doesn't show busing not working. It just shows she hates it.

2. Does Ms. Mitchell believe the status quo is good for Cleveland students? How would she recommend improving education?

3. I'm open to other solutions other than busing--but I'm not open to staying segregated. We must integrate. Options?

Alison said...

This was a statement made after 20 years of busing in Cleveland, costing the city millions. When the experiment was finally ended (by court, I believe, in 1998) the schools were more segregated than they had been before, and the city was on its way to being one of the poorest in the nation. In 1990, Cleveland Public School 8th graders scored lower in math, language, and reading skills than did students in other similarly-sized districts, overall student attendance was 86.7% and the graduation rate was 43.9%. Five years later, that graduation rate was down to 34.8%. In 1991, only 10% of 9th-graders passed all four parts of their proficiency tests.

Now I will grant you that the numbers haven't suddenly skyrocketed since busing was eliminated - graduation rates still hover around the 40% mark - but all and all I think it's safe to call this one a failure.

FWIW, I think we have different definitions of "segregation" - to me that means some sort of governmental segregation, not the self-segregation that people do on their own, every day. Kenyon has had a steadily growing black population for 50 years, and yet the kids still sit separately at lunch. Likewise, people will choose to live with people who look like them.

Based on what Matt wrote, Raleigh is integrating by CLASS, not by RACE. I believe that the fact that you have equated those two things is my biggest problem with your argument. The problem is not that black schools are inferior. It is that poor schools are inferior.

What about an idea Joe and I were batting around tonight - make funding for schools a state-wide pool, distributed evenly? That way the kids in the poor neighborhoods get some of the benefit from the property taxes of the rich suburban-ites. Eliminate local funding entirely - even donations from well-meaning parents - all funding goes through the state organization.

On a lighter note, my word verification word was "jauma," which is as close as I have ever seen to an actual word in that system.

TeacherRefPoet said...

Yes, they're integrating by class rather than race in Raleigh. But isn't busing busing? And any look at demographics in this country will tell us that class and race are all-too related. Yes, there are exceptions--rich people of color and poor white people. But take a look at the best schools in the burbs and the worst in the cities. The only word to describe what you see is segregation. Racial segregation. It's not governmentally enforced--but it's a result of our history of racism.

And I'm upset by the notion that people are "choosing" to live with people who look like them. It's very close to saying people choose to live in ghettoes, or, for that matter, to live in nice rich suburbs. To say that is to overlook our history, and the role that dumb luck and (it is foolish to deny it) race plays in that "choice." Nobody would choose to live in the neighborhoods or attend the schools Kozol describes. Do you believe anyone would? Why aren't any white people choosing to live in Mott Haven? We're not talking lunch tables--we're talking safety and quality of life that everyone wants.

I support your and Joe's plan. If parents want to donate, they either donate their money to the state system or their time to the school of their choice. The only issue I have with that is that rich parents might all evacuate their kids to private schools. But I'm willing to risk it.

This is a fun exchange, Alison--I wish all policy debates were this cool.

Joe said...

Another viewpoint...

http://www.ucomics.com/boondocks/2005/11/16/

lemming said...

Busing also didn't work in Boston and was abandoned with enthusiasm from all parties involved. I cannot give you a good link because I learned about this from reading a peer's seminar research paper on it a few years back.

Kozol is one man. Basing your arguments upon Kozol is like basing your interpretation of American history on the works of Howard Zinn. Will you gain valuable insights from his books? Of course. Do they tell the whole picture? Of course not.

TRP - you didn't answer my confidential question, so I'll rephrase more broadly. Are teachers who are bound by school rules and regulations therefore by definition bad teachers? If a Kansas biology teacher discusses ID with kids as a superior theory to evolution, does that make them a bad teacher?

You ask for options: rather than intergrating the kids (which, as Alison points out, often leads to self-segregated groups within the desegregated school) why not integrate the communities? I mentioned a plan I heard discussed on NPR that moved motivated minority families and was able to effectively support them in bettering their lives. Why not?

MCMC said...

A few things--sorry I've been awol from the discussion:

First, I think the smart kids don't get shortchanged if they do some teaching and some learning. I'd argue that they get challenged. And I'd agree with TRP that all kids can teach. Also, I'm not an expert on how this works, so actual teachers in actual classrooms will trump any argument I make, but mixing kids of different skills is still a good idea in my book.

Second, I think we have to figure out some sort of reasonable solution to hiring and dismissal of teachers. Paying enough to attract really talented folks (who aren't necessarily the smartest in their field) is a start. The second is to have an honest conversation with administrators, school boards, and teachers' unions that gets past the rhetoric and focuses on how we address bad teaching without creating a deep sense of mistrust and job insecurity among teachers.

On the failures of busing: I'd argue that these failures occured precisely because they focused on race and not class. If memory serves, it often happened that the most academically talented black students ended up making the trip out to the burbs and left the least academically able students behind. Are we surprised that this didn't work? We shouldn't be.

Also, the busing has to be reasonable. You can't have kids riding cross town, as I believe they did in both Boston and Cleveland. Anybody not believe that a 45 minute trip cross town hurts your ability to learn? Think again.

Still, totally dismissing the results in Raleigh would be a mistake. The scores have improved. Parents seem happy. Something's working there. Let's figure out what it is and how to replicate it.

Finally, on funding: It has to be federal and state income taxes that fund this stuff. And a statewide pool is a good idea (it's Joe and Alison's I think)

But you can't give every school the same amount. Why? Because it's simply more expensive to educate kids in Minneapolis, who are poorer and who speak a total of 54 different languages, than it is to teach students in overwhelmingly white and middle class suburbs. Achieving equality of outcome means heavier investment in urban schools.

Enjoying the conversation...

pax
MCMC

lemming said...

to have an honest conversation with administrators, school boards, and teachers' unions that gets past the rhetoric and focuses on how we address bad teaching without creating a deep sense of mistrust and job insecurity among teachers.

As an ideal, I'll agree with you 110% on this.

I'm pushing for practicalities. It's all very well for middle-class over-educated folks like us to discuss this, but I'm looking for something that I (or we) can actually do to better the situation. How are we to go about opening this conversation? Teh administrators are sure they're right, the teachers distrust the adminstration and everyone distrusts the school board.

Example: my favorite neighbor follows school board politics very closely, and all of his children are public school teachers. Every time school board elections come up, he goes door to door to tell neighbors not to vote for a particular long time board member; while their campaign literature pays lip service to improving academic standards, this person is far more interested in athletic standards and consistantly votes along those lines. Yet folks still vote for this person, and so their policies remain in place and this person's relationship with teachers remains poor.

P.S. Word verification - "gfroovfy"

TeacherRefPoet said...

"Rather than integrating the kids, let's integrate the communities."

The heard-on-NPR program doesn't sound like it can work in any large scale. And who moves into the ghetto with its substandard school when the room in the burbs runs out?

I'm all for ditching bad teachers.

I'm frustrated that we've given up on Brown vs. Board of Ed. We've decided it's not important. If you've gone through watching a kid in a 95% white, less than 1% black school give a presentation on Brown vs. Board of Ed and concluding by saying "And now we're integrated! Those days are over!"...well, that bothers me. And the arguments being made against it are not dissimilar from the arguments made against the Little Rock Nine.

It just feels like integration isn't important to us as a nation when we fought so hard to get it. Economically-enforced racial segregation made possible by our history of racial injustice is just as disgusting to me as what what was happening in the South.

Lemming--A good teacher might not be allowed to be good in a bad school or a bad system. The conclusion I see you draw--perhaps mistakenly--is that it's impossible to challenge smart kids in a public school setting. I disagree with that.

Simple question:

Does anyone care that we've given up on Brown?

lemming said...

TRP - I care. Iget your failures - belive me, I care, deeply. I'm still waiting for you (or MCMC or anyone else) to come up with anything that can be doneother than wringing our hands.

I am the last teacher these folks meet. Whatever you (and I know how much you care and work) have failed to teach them falls to me. I am trained in upper level history. I am not trained in middle school English comp.

Public school teachers are not doing their jobs.

I don't know why. I feel for the struggles and obstacles. I just know that I hear over and over (and over and over) that I am teaching the basic English that my students did not learn in H.S.

TRP, I know you, and know that you work overtime to make sure that your kids hit my classroom at their best. You agonize and worry and care deeply. Without you and your peers, my job would be miserable.

It's not working.

In addition to the context of the various wars etc. I must teach basic syntax. Evern the students from "upper middle class" high schools can't match verbs and subjects.

Forgive me if I am cynical, but something is amiss in the state of Denmark.

When I am the one to tell a 30+ HISTORY teacher in a top district that Jewish does not mean "Protestant" something is wrong.

Swankette said...

Lemming,

You're trying to take the conversation down a different path when you proclaim that public school teachers aren't doing their jobs because you have to teach your students grammar and syntax.

I went to a well regarded public school in one of the strongest districts in the state where I lived. I took advanced and AP classes. I had a 3.5 gpa at graduation, with B's in English for as long as I can remember.

I didn't learn the difference between a direct and an indirect object until my sophomore year of high school, while taking 2nd year German, well after formal grammar training had ceased. I didn't start learning proper grammar until my freshman year of college - from classmates. Grammar check and friends got me through college, and it wasn't until I was given the duty of teaching grammar to those taking the GMAT that I actually started to understand things like modifiers and gerunds.

But my education did not fail me. It trained me to get the answers I needed when I needed them.

That's curricular change which needs to take place, and when you start going down that path it gets into the whole issue of teaching to tests and such rather than the issue of providing a fair education to everyone. To open up that can of worms simultaneous to this one would be far more than one blog post could try to get it's teeth around.

TeacherRefPoet said...

Strange--My original post stated that parents tend only to value their own kids' education, even though that "better" education comes at the expense of others. I also stated that this helps to cause segregation patterns to fossilize.

Now, we've made our way to blanket teacher-bashing. Thanks for excluding me from the bashing--but I still will take this as a sign it's time to abandon the thread, which I've enjoyed so much.

But I'll get in one more response:

1. I've given five--count 'em, five--different suggestions to fix the problem:

--Revolution. Screaming in the streets. Demand education for all. Demand quality teachers (and salaries to attract them). Demand high schools with basics like windows that open, playgrounds, cafeterias, desks. SHOUT.

--Class-based integration. Raleigh is in the very process of working.

--Race-based integration. Yeah, busing. I've given stats that it's working in Milwaukee, and there are similar stories in St. Louis and elsewhere. It was unpopular in Boston (which does not mean ineffective) and unsuccessful in Cleveland. But it was working in many places until it was dismantled by the Supreme Court in the early nineties.

--Forcing the issue by sending privileged kids to the crappy schools. See how quickly poor education suddenly becomes important when it's "our" kids. Ugly, but believe you me, it'll force a change. If the schools are good enough for the poor, why aren't they good enough for the rich? Nobody's answered this, although I've asked it repeatedly in this thread.

--Dividing up money at the state level. (the Joe and Alison plan)

You can disagree with these plans if you'd like. But I have offered solutions. I have not said "Well, there's no way to solve it, so I'll sit back in the status quo and reap its benefits." That's the position that caused the post in the first place...parents gaining benefits of the system at the expense of their neighbors, and how those parents will inevitably fight the system because the status quo is to their advantage.

The fact is, we have schools in the Bronx (for instance) which are overcrowded by as much as 50%, and usually lack more than one of the following: desks, clean bathrooms, playgrounds, quality teachers, music, art, windows that open, air conditioning, heating, textbooks, storybooks, and other essentials. You can blame the parents for those kids' low achievement--that's a nice easy scapegoat. You can blame the teachers in these schools if you'd like, although I'd like to meet the teacher who could get results under these circumstances. You can ignore the fact that a grossly disproportionate percentage of the kids who must endure these deplorable conditions are Black and Latino, facing worse conditions than the segregated schools they've supposedly been freed from. In fact, I've learned that it's possible to do all of these things simultaneously.

I will not be complacent about this issue.

I've written my Senators and Congressman saying this has to change. I'll write again. And again. Tell me where to go, and I'll march. I'll shout. I'll scream. The status quo is not worthy of my nation.

If you agree, please join me.

Moving on now...

MCMC said...

Lemming:

You asked me to be practical about how we get folks into difficult conversations about hiring and firing good teachers, so here's a good example:

In Texas, community organizations affiliated with the IAF have created the Alliance Schools project. That project trains parents, teachers, administrators, etc. in the basic skills of community organizing and then gets them into conversations about how they can improve their kids' schooling. It allows teachers to challenge parents to be more involved and allows parents to hold teachers accountable.

I don't know that they've approached the thorny issues of hiring and firing, but the results demonstrate that they've created trust with one another, and that is the first step in a process that will be long, difficult, and tense.

And by the way, these are immigrant and low-wage parents doing this work, teaching us middle class folks how it's done.

What the Alliance schools project teaches me is this: new forms of organization can make a real difference, and it will mean real investment of time, energy, imagination, and hope from ordinary folks who are parents.

Thanks, TRP, for starting the thread, and for putting real solutions on the table. There are two or three books written about the alliance schools project. let's start a book club and read them, shall we?

La lucha continua...

pax
MCMC

lemming said...

I didn't intend my comment to be taken as teacher bashing and I'm sorry if that's how you took it, TRP.

I don't blame the teachers.

I do think that a good education is possible in a public school. I attended an excellent public school system.

I don't think that your "send the rich kids to the crappy schools" suggestion qualifies as practical.

Swankette said...

I've devised the perfect plan: It's over on my blog, since it's quite a bit longer than a reasonable reply,